The URL bar on the sidebar when in vertical tab mode would look much better than the current implementation where the tab bar is still taking up room.
This would allow maximal viewport space and wouldn't affect any current user
Every bit of screen real estate in a browser matters -- the sidebar isn't really good UX in comparison to the other two since it limits the viewport space proportional to the window size a lot more than the other two do.
Want to see if the community can agree on a set of proposed changes for Orion's sidebar. There is also a recent thread similar to this.
Hey guys, I like Arc, and I’ve been using it since it was invite-only, but I don’t think that we need to build a clone here. Some things like swiping left/right for tab groups and search bar in sidebar do work, but IF the browser supports vertical tabs ONLY. In Orion, we need to think about how it would all work with horizontal tabs, as well.
Another thing is that Orion, like Safari, has a customizable top bar. You can’t do such a thing as user customization with such a specific layout that Arc has. And being so specific is actually what Arc’s problem is — user either gets accustomed to it or not. You CAN NOT customize the layout. That’s why they’re calling it “niche browser” now. That’s why they’re building another browser.
And some screenshots in here are literary Safari-painted Arc.
Look at Chrome, Firefox, Vivaldi or Safari setup of a three different people. Chances are that they’re going to have different buttons for different functions in different places. Look at the Arc setup of a three different people. Chances are that they’re going to have different background colors, that’s it.
I agree with everything being said about screen real-estate, I just don’t see it in Orion’s DNA. Maybe I’m wrong.
I do like the idea of topbar autohide, like in SigmaOS (also a niche browser). That could be cool. But then again, both Arc and SigmaOS don’t actually have traditional URL bars, it’s more like a command bar, like Spotlight, ⌘T at the center of a screen. So autohide could just as easily not work in Orion.
All of that being said, I agree that some of the UX flows in Orion could be better, see The Orion Panel thread for suggestions. Here's a little preview:
Now, for tab grouping, it could be so (visually) simple: just add a subtitle, like macOS already does in sidebars. For horizontal tabs, do what Chrome Tab Group does. For compact tabs, do what Opera Tab Island does. And that’s it.
You sould also be able to select multiple tabs at once (which you can't right now) > right click > create tab group.
Here're quick and dirty sketches of the idea:
Pinning
You can also see my attempt at pinned tabs here, but I'm not sure if I like it. They're somewhat in between the current Orion Pinned Tabs and Arc Favorites. What do you think?
Disclaimer: I’ve recently started a thread about Vertical Tabs, and while searching for similar threads, came down to this one. This is not a rant, although I’m aware it may sound like one. Please take these opinions with a grain of salt, I’m not a hater, I promise 
Just thinking out loud, trying to solve the same problems as you do.
“If I Had More Time, I Would Have Written a Shorter Letter” - Blaise Pascal
Hey Milo,
I really like your ideas and initial mock ups. It looks clean and not too cluttered.
What do you think about the bookmarks location? You reckon it would still work if you can place your bookmarks on the vertical sidebar on the left and have them as a tab group essentially so you can expand/collapse them? They would in essence act as pinned tabs similar to in Arc and as you've shown.
As for bookmarks in the horizontal tab bar, they would act as pinned tabs and open the webpage in place rather than opening in a new tab.
This was discussed in the below thread:
https://orionfeedback.org/d/5377-larger-iconshow-title-for-pinned-tabs-in-sidebar-favorites-in-sidebar
I feel like these two threads come hand in hand, hence why I am mentioning it.
What are your thoughts?
Niko I find tab nesting/indentation in Orion much more useful than pinning and folders in Arc. Also, suggested "Tab Groups" will essentially give you folders. And, as a cherry on top, you'd still have your bookmarks in the panel, which could be managed separately. It could help to declutter sidebar, but still keep everything at hand. I feel like it could be the best of both worlds, but, of course, I have no data to back that up.
When you say "bookmarks in the horizontal tab bar", you already have them (⌘+⇧+B). So, basically, I think that trying to clone Arc's features and terminology into Orion would just create unnecessary confusion. It's a specific mental model, that resonates with a narrow user group, and that whole browser is designed around it.
When I say "terminology", even just using words in the discussion that you linked creates confusion, not to mention mockups. Imagine how it would look like in production then. Here's what I mean:
| Arc | Orion |
|---|---|
| Daily Tabs | Open Tabs |
| Favorites | Pinned Tabs |
| Pinned Tabs | - |
| - | Bookmarks |
On top of that, Orion even has "Favorites" too, in the "Bookmarks" panel.
Another thing regarding the discussion you linked, somebody was talking about differentiating two pinned tabs from the same website (e.g. Google Docs), but he was essentially talking about renaming tabs, not pinning them. That's another topic.
I don't think that mix & match of tabs and bookmarks would work and feel intuitive in Orion.
@milos I really like your design. I like how you're maintaining that Orion is not, and should copy the same UX that arc has with regards to tabs
Just a few things:
I suggest removing the tab groups mockups and reposting over here: https://orionfeedback.org/d/3295-tab-groups-similar-to-that-of-google-chrome/8
Just to clarify:
all other bookmarks are located under Bookmarks->
(In safari, bookmarks shown in start page and in bookmarks bar are the same)
Giving my two cents her regarding @milos mockups: I have to say I am against this new concept of tab groups. We already have a lot of group structures in Orion (Profiles > Windows > Tabs) and this just seems to add another level of complexity on top, while being a less flexible version of the already planned tab folders.
The idea of having the all the sidebars other than the vertical tabs one on the left side is a good idea ane I am all for it. This will also give a solution to all the problems regarding how to handle opening/closing of a sidebar while in vertical tabs mode.
eirk can you elaborate why you don’t want Orion to follow Arcs sidebar UI? I think it’s THE reason that so many users flocked to or kept using Arc instead of Orion.
I think that the concept that @jannisborgers created in the other thread https://orionfeedback.org/d/5377-larger-iconshow-title-for-pinned-tabs-in-sidebar-favorites-in-sidebar/47 would make working with Orion on a daily basis more ‘in the flow’.
janpeeters regarding just the UI, ie the sizing of stuff/icons, it's fine to change. it's purely a cosmetic difference
But, Arc's novel sidebar implementation with tabs and bookmarks combined into one concept is indeed the reason why a ton of people flocked to arc, but it's also why a lot of people choose not to use arc. The average user uses apps with zero learning curve, and arc has a decent learning curve. I do appreciate the ingenuity of arc's implementation, but I don't see exactly how it benefits everyone. I think the existing concept of the browser with bookmarks and tabs as separate concepts should be maintained
laptudirm I agree, sorry I wasn't clear enough. If Tab Groups are to be added, Windows should go. So it'd be Profiles > Tab Groups > Tabs. That's if there's a concensus that Windows are hard to understand, and Arc's folders (which are essentially Tab Groups) work better.
I didn't know about Tab Folders and that they're Planned - and I quite like the UX Study shown there. It's looking good! I'd probably just remove chevrons all-around. Somebody clearly gave it more than 10 mins of thought 
That's it, no need for tab groups then. Thanks for sharing.
@eirk Thank you! Regarding laptudirm's comment of what's already planned, I feel like there's no need for a repost.
On a side note, some of the stuff that Arc has that I love to already see in Orion:
laptudirm I already have, it's linked in the Reply above. Here it is: https://orionfeedback.org/d/8933-imagining-the-orion-panel
eirk I understand your point. I do hope though that the new implementation will provide something like pinned bookmarks/bookmark folders in the left sidebar that open websites 'in place'. And have a location that you can return to. That way you can have a folder for News, Science, Tech so that often visited sites are easily accessible.
Below this section there could be a section for open tabs in tree mode. But even tree mode is a complex feature for users that like it easy, "why are my tabs indented"?
I like @milos design where the bookmarks and other useful things like history,some websites are in a expandable right sidebar. It's how Vivaldi 7 does it and works great. I would love something like that for Orion!
The left sidebar can then be used for:
I do agree that a lot of users find Arc too complex. But that can be easily circumvented by making features opt-in. Even Orion is a niche browser. Most people just take Safari, Edge, Chrome because it's preinstalled. It's a challenge to make people download another browser.
Hey guys, I like Arc, and I’ve been using it since it was invite-only, but I don’t think that we need to build a clone here.
I wanted to highlight this comment. As much as some people liked what Arc did, it was pretty opinionated which is why Arc ended being a niche browser.
On the other hand Orion has been built as a general purpose browser, a true user agent, built both for a techie and techie's grandma. Everything we do needs to adhere to:
Now since this thread is very constructive I want to acknowledge that and thank for everyone's contribution.
milos thanks for thinking this through.
Since you already made mockups in other threads:
https://orionfeedback.org/d/5377-larger-iconshow-title-for-pinned-tabs-in-sidebar-favorites-in-sidebar/
https://orionfeedback.org/d/8917-vertical-tabs-design-improvements
https://orionfeedback.org/d/8933-imagining-the-orion-panel/
This is becoming very hard for us to track and think about. The real challenge for us is when we have so many different opinions about a topic we do not know much (none in our team are passionate Arc users). This can lead to us interpretting requests in the wrong way.
I wonder if you could summarize these into the minimum amount of changes (so that it is doable by the team) that would accomplish maximum amount of desired functionality (fully acknowledging that Arc did some things well)?
But that can be easily circumvented by making features opt-in.
Making features opt-in is the worst thing we can do from a development standpoint. It take more time to build (you are now doing 2x, 3x... work),it produces more bugs and and it makes it harder to maintain (Orion works on macOS 10.14!). This is why we are looking for reasonable defaults and options only if we have to.
To put things in perspective:
Arc - built on top of Chromium so got the browser app framework for free. Only option for the user is vertical tabs. That's it, if you do not like you are out of luck. Team size >100.
Orion - building with WebKit, browser app needs to built from scratch (no Chromiuim equivalent for WebKit). Orion supports Horizontal tabs, Vertical tabs, Compact Tabs... Multiple other customizations avaialble. Built as fully native Mac app. Team size 5.
Let's not ask us to add more options, but find ways to remove existing options instead and have good constructive discussions that will produce sane defaults. Thank you 
Vlad Summarizing the last few posts here, we seem to have reached a consensus on the following issues/features:
#8917 The bigger margins will help separate the tabs better, and the chevrons being embedded in the tab icon will also prevent the tabs from jumping left to right.#8933 Having a separate panel for all the non-vertical tab sidebars on the right hand side will make the behavior related to hiding/showing those tabs while in vertical tabs mode more intuitive, currently there are a few recurring issues regarding hiding/showing the other sidebars while in vertical tabs mode, which would all be fixed.For now I would encourage everyone to either show support or express their concerns regarding these two issues. Once their future is decided, more divisive topics can be discussed.
Vlad good point, thanks for clarifying the context. I Agree with you regarding the not adding options.
Vlad I wonder if you could summarize these into the minimum amount of changes (so that it is doable by the team) that would accomplish maximum amount of desired functionality (fully acknowledging that Arc did some things well)?
Sure, I'll try to make a comperhansive list of quick-win feature improvements that I think could work well for all of the Orion users. I'll add a reply to this tread in the next few days.