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Vlad And here is an opinion from a well known voice in the Apple community:
https://daringfireball.net/2021/10/the_tragedy_of_safari_15_quote_unquote_tabs

That was a pretty good article and helped me to think about this some more.

One issue I'd like to point out with the compact tabs is that, to change a URL, it requires two clicks (and even in separate areas sometimes, if there are a lot of tabs!) unlike the old ones, where it was merely moving the cursor to the same space at the top, and clicking once. I think there might have been some concessions made to usability in order to achieve the desired aesthetic.

Vlad I as a user neither know what page I am browsing nor it is comfortable to use all the additional icons. Just because it looked 'prettier' to someone at Apple does not mean it is better for the user.

It is true that something having a visually pleasing quality to those at Apple, does not necessarily translate into it being better for users in the end. Sometimes Apple pivots and changes their approach, too.

Also as a general point here – I think there is more to this than personal opinion and objection. The browser needs a certain choice made about what it can offer, so relativizing the question too much doesn't help find the best answer. And the best choice requires some thought about what makes UI and UX better, or worse. More clicks or fewer? How many icons to display? Design preference? Change or tradition?

And so on.

        5 days later

        Orionic

        One issue I'd like to point out with the compact tabs is that, to change a URL, it requires two clicks

        Thanks for pointing that out, this uneccesary overhead adds up over time as this is one of the most used functionalites in a browser.

            Vlad This is actually nonsense, changing the URL does not take two clicks, it takes one. You simply click on the tab where the address is displayed, and it becomes an editable address field. One click.

            Changing the URL on a different tab does indeed take two clicks, but this is a moot point, because changing the URL on a different tab in Orion or any other browser takes two clicks as well (clicking the tab first to switch to it, then clicking in the address bar).

                Good point, may have overlooked that.

                It’s that the second click takes place in a different location in Orion. But, in the case of Safari compact tabs, it’s that second location is not always the same, though it is probably closer to the first click location.

                Edit: In my example, the first click is selecting the desired tab, and the second click is selecting the address bar to change the page of the tab.

                  Orionic You are correct, selecting another tab will move where you need to click again to get the editable address field. However, this behavior is exhibited in every other browser as well, with admittedly a slight difference.

                  In every other browser, once you select the tab, you need to move your mouse to the address bar for the 2nd click.

                  In Safari, when you click the tab, depending on where it was, you may need to move your mouse to perform the 2nd click. However, that movement will be slight in either direction, and may actually not be required, depending on where the tab was to begin with, etc.

                  The slight difference I mentioned is, the address bar in every other browser will stay in the same location. So, from that perspective, I get what you mean about "jumping around" etc. However, as someone who has embraced the new way of doing tabs in Safari, I find it not that difficult to get used to. Some of that may be due to the fact that in my common usage, I don't typically switch to another tab to change a URL. If I'm actively browsing around and changing URLs, it's typically done in one tab—the active tab. If I want to hang on to that but browse something else, I open a new tab and go from there. If I go back to another tab, it's to do one of two things: either interact with that content again, or close the tab entirely. Rarely if ever do I switch to a previously opened tab to change the URL of that tab. So that could be why I'm not really "seeing the problem" as described here.

                    Would it make sense to give users the preference if the address bar should be separate? A checkbox by the compact tabs setting for example. Too many options can be bad, though.

                      Orionic the downside to too many options is the development overhead needed to not only build out the options, but continue maintaining them as changes are made to other behaviors. There will come a point where there’s too many edge cases to account for. That the team is even considering the idea is big as there are already two ways to display tabs in Orion (normal and vertical sidebar)

                        Vlad

                        You can say design tastes are different which is true, but UX is deterministic.

                        This isn't actually true. A common misconception is that you can practice "UX Design". A User Experience is just that: what a user experiences.

                        That being said, there is two different types of interactions: Learned Behaviors vs Instinctive Behaviors. For an application that is used frequently, as a primary workflow, learned behaviors are equally as acceptable as instinctive behaviors. In the case of Apple, iOS has evolved over time to heavily rely on Learned Behaviors in their interface which actually results in a better user experience.

                        Keybindings / Shortcuts are an excellent example of a Learned Behavior that improve the user experience, and I believe you would be hard pressed to find a user of Orion that would want fewer shortcuts to accomplish routine tasks.

                        In the context of compact navigation such as the new Safari, we can look directly to shortcuts as to why this is an improved experience for many users.

                        I interact with my Address bar exclusively with CMD+L. When I am not actively viewing a page, the URL is not important to me, the page title is. When I am viewing a tab, I want to be sure that the URL I am visiting is indeed the accurate URL, and not a phishing attempt. The Apple implementation of compact tabs give both of these requirements perfectly, while limiting my vertical real estate usage. It is also always clear as to which tab the address bar is reflecting.

                        Since I interact with shortcuts, all that is import to me is clarity of the correct information when I need it. Cmd+Tab / Cmd+Shift+Tab changes my tabs. Moving tabs is not important, as I do not have to click them, nor would I want to. Moving address bars is not important for the same reason.

                        For a power user, the interface for the new Safari compact tabs provides the best possible user experience.

                        Now, it is important to remember that this interface will only perform well for users that have learned these behaviors. New users will have a more difficult time adopting this interface, but as interactions are learned, efficiency generally increases.

                        User Experience is subjective, and everyone will experience an application differently. Short AB Testing for Learned Behaviors will never display positive results, and thus, they are often thrown out by less experience designers and testers.

                        I hope to see a compact tab implementation in Orion, as it is the only thing preventing me from moving over to it, as the cleanliness and real-estate gained from Safari is too great to give up, and I do feel that the single unified UI element of "Address-In-Tab" is the best implementation for this concept, as otherwise, the benefits are lost almost immediately.

                            Hybrid

                            A common misconception is that you can practice "UX Design".

                            Apple's HIG exists for the purpose of doing exactly that. It is a tragedy that Apple themselves do not follow it all the time, causing the mess that their current compact tab implementation is.

                            For a power user, the interface for the new Safari compact tabs provides the best possible user experience.

                            Arguably the most well known Mac power-user disagrees: https://daringfireball.net/2021/10/the_tragedy_of_safari_15_quote_unquote_tabs

                            I hope to see a compact tab implementation in Orion, as it is the only thing preventing me from moving over to it, as the cleanliness and real-estate gained from Safari is too great to give up

                            Difference between Orion's "compact size" (not what is being suggested here) as it exists right now in the browser and Safari "compact tabs" is only 10px of vertical height. In practice this difference is barely visible even on a low-res macbook air screen.

                                Vlad

                                Two points n this:

                                • Gruber is a contrarian, and notoriously disagrees with Apple’s HIG.
                                • He is using an old version of the tabs in his article to judge the implementation. The unified address bar had not yet been implemented at the time of his article. Judging the previous implementation, he is correct in his assessment, and I agree that with two tabs open, the previous implementation was not to accessible design standards and a miss.

                                The cleanliness of the new design is a delight to use, and resolved the accessibility concerns highlighted by Gruber.

                                While I appreciate your opinion, I personally disagree that that it is a disaster. This is an example of why a User Experience cannot be designed, it can only be experienced.

                                The sacrifice of padding to create a “compact size” is not the same as combining UI elements to create a progressive disclosure pattern.

                                User experience will always be subjective, and I think you will be surprised at the number of people that prefer the new compact tab implementation in current Safari with the “Address In Tab” implementation which allows a more spacious design by utilizing padding, while still minimizing the vertical real-estate that it consumes.

                                I just hope that Apple’s objectively decent tab implementation isn’t dismissed due to a highly subjective opinion of a blogger. While the design is not ideal for everyone, it provides a refreshing and delightful experience for many.

                                The implementation shown here: https://orionfeedback.org/d/92-compact-tabs/82 Is actually pleasant, however, the address bar isn’t used frequently after navigating to a website, and this results in wasted space removing room that tabs could otherwise utilize.

                                I, however, would be more than happy to personally compromise with the IE9 style implementation proposed, though, it introduces more compromises than the new Apple design does, in my opinion.

                                I am excited about the progress, flexibility, and privacy focus of Orion, and despite not using it as my daily driver, it is by far my favorite browser available.

                                A compromise worth considering was proposed by Orionic previously, by adding an additional option to give the user the choice between Safari 15 and IE9 style address bars, providing better customizability and situational utility.

                                    Hybrid

                                    I, however, would be more than happy to personally compromise with the IE9 style implementation proposed, though, it introduces more compromises than the new Apple design does, in my opinion.

                                    Thanks for saying this.

                                    Let's not judge something before it is out. Orion has a history of getting things right and disappointing users is not something we take lightly.

                                      25 days later

                                      I set safari as my default mainly because of the minimalism the new safari compact tabs offers. Its so elegant, neat, ...

                                      Vlad I agree with this implementation completely. It saves space and the search bar is in a predictable location. For a similar idea/concept Waterfall is a Firefox css modification that accomplishes most of what’s been discussed here.

                                        This is the translucent toolbar on safari

                                        This is the white toolbar on Orion

                                        I prefer the translucent look of the toolbar on safari

                                        • Vlad replied to this.

                                          I believe it is part of the "compact tabs" option

                                            Merged 3 posts from Match white/black Orion toolbar with translucent safari toolbar.