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Interesting discussion. I haven't really used Safari in years so not familiar with how they do it.

I will say when I am looking for something like extensions or other (small s) settings I will look in menus on the far left or the far right. Thats just usually where they are. Having extensions in with other (small s) settings like Preferences makes logical sense to me. I could also logically see them under the Tools menu because in a way extensions are tools.
If I was a developer I could understand why extensions would fit under Library, but as a user Library is for media. It was one of the last places I looked for the extensions.
That said the logical grouping of extensions with History/Bookmarks/Passwords makes a ton of sense. Those things do all sort of go together. However, I do not feel they belong in something called 'Library'. Nor does that belong under the 'View' menu. (speaking of the View menu, why no 'show page source' there?)

So I am sitting here staring at both the Preferences window and the Library window open and the dev in me can sorta see what you are trying to do and it makes sense. The user in me still can't understand why History/Bookmarks/Passwords/Extensions are in something called a Library under the View menu.

I would suggest renaming the Library something else (I don't have a suggestion as to what yet) and then moving that to just under Preferences in the Orion menu. Or at the very least adding a link in the Preferences window to the Library.

Basically my ultimate goal here is to somehow make the Extensions easier to find.

    SR Aren't Extensions easy to find - we've given them an entire top level menu called "Extensions".

        What the....

        Color me red

        I swear that wasn't there an hour ago....

        Of course its in the middle, and I always look to the left or right side.

        Maybe 11 menus is to many?

        I wonder if it would still make sense to put a link to Extensions from Preferences?

        • Vlad replied to this.

          Maybe have a menu item called Library with History, Bookmarks, and Extensions as sub menus?

          • Vlad replied to this.

            SR well extensions are either important or not 🙂 whats your suggestion?

                FluffyKitty776 Most people want to see history and Bookmarks in the top level menu.

                    SR Can you say why would you manage extensions in preferences and not for example manage bookmarks in the same place?

                        I could see bookmark management under Preferences, sure.

                        I just don't logically see bookmarks and extensions together by themselves, they are just different things. But you could group them together if there was others stuff in the group as well. Basically anything the user is going to want to 'edit'. Things like UI settings, download locations, search engine defaults, etc you can put bookmarks and extensions in that group as well. I just don't see them living together as a separate group. they can be apart and each have their own setting but they don't make a very good group, IMO.

                        I'm not sure I am explaining this well.

                        I think Extensions having their own menu is fine. And now that I know they have their own menu I know where to look. (No idea why I didn't see it earlier) AND given the importance extensions have in a modern browser it is totally appropriate for them to have their own menu. However, I do worry about too many menus. The (very) old school designer in me says you should try to stay between 7 and 9. Some of those are system menus I know but Orion currently shows 11 menus in my menu bar. IMO that a few too many.

                        So what is the answer? <shrug> Someone will have to make a choice, and be able to defend that choice against people who come later and say 'Thats wrong, do it this way' Because the last thing you want to do is constantly change the experience for the user because no one know for sure where it should go.

                          I had the same problem honestly. Looked for extension "settings" and first went to settings for this and found stuff under websites -> extension settings. I would prefer having extensions in the settings over them staying in the menu.

                          Also the "Browse..." in the menu doesn't really make it clear at all what it's function is (something I thought Orion lacked even), the name is bad.

                          • Vlad replied to this.
                            5 days later

                            anonym The issue is that extension settings do not logically belong in Browser preferences.

                            Our logical organization is Browser preferences are all preferences related to the browser itself, something Orion ships with by default.

                            Library window is for resources user creates or adds -> bookmarks, history, extensions, passwords...

                            If we accept that for a second - Is the Extensions menu simply not that visible? What other alternative can we explore?

                            What would you rename Browse... to?

                            • gp replied to this.

                                Vlad What would you rename Browse... to?

                                Maybe something like "Install from Disk..."? The operative word here seems to be "install", and it's coming from "disk" if you're browsing to it via a file picker. Maybe "from Disk" isn't the right language on Mac? I thought about "Install from File..." as well - might be another option.

                                  2 months later

                                  I think this could be solved by following the existing convention from other browsers of surfacing an "Extensions" option under the Windows menu. This is the first place I looked, at any rate, as I also had problems figuring out where to manage extensions.

                                  For what it's worth, I don't think extension preferences belong in the browser preferences. They are two different modes where one is way more common (changing how the browser works) than the other (managing and setting extension settings). The browser-level settings window should be optimized for what it's meant to do.

                                  • Vlad replied to this.

                                    twingeofregret This is a great idea.

                                    We should add

                                    Passwords
                                    Extensions

                                    to Window menu (opening their window).

                                    and remove
                                    Show Library
                                    Show Saved Passwords

                                    from View menu

                                    I would keep tools -> extensions as this allows direct management, not showing the window.

                                    Thoughts?

                                        4 months later

                                        Now that it's in Tools and Windows it's even harder to find, IMO. If I didn't know that Orion supported extensions, I would never guess that it could and I'm not sure if I would stumble upon the option in the sea of menu options, because the place I would look for it is settings. There should be an icon or label in settings (maybe on the top right) redirecting you to the extension window, like both Firefox and Chrome (at least it used to, I'm not sure about now) do it.

                                        E.g. Firefox, see bottom left

                                        • Vlad replied to this.

                                          anonym But what Extensions have to do with browser settings? Would you by same logic list your Downloads or Bookmarks in the settings? And the argument that everyone else has it there is not a good one, because they are all wrong 🙂 Some browser made this mistake long time ago and others just blindly copied without putting thought into it.

                                              Vlad

                                              I "set up" my extensions there, same as I can set up Download settings in Settings, there even are settings that concern bookmarks. I don't see why having extensions in settings (where I would argue everyone coming from other browsers would assume them, wrongly or not) would be a problem. Unlike extensions I wouldn't list Downloads and Bookmarks there though. Downloads are not part of the browser (they are external and end up in some folder), extensions are (they become so by extending the browser). Bookmarks too are not part of the browser either, in the sense in which URLs aren't part of the browser.

                                              • Vlad replied to this.

                                                  anonym

                                                  I "set up" my extensions there, same as I can set up Download settings in Settings,

                                                  The correct analogy would be to "set up" Extensions settings not manage extensions themselves, like you do not manage downloads or manage bookmarks in Preferences.

                                                  I would argue everyone coming from other browsers would assume them, wrongly or not) would be a problem

                                                  I agree that everyone expects it there, still doesn't make it right.

                                                  Downloads are not part of the browser (they are external and end up in some folder), extensions are (they become so by extending the browser). Bookmarks too are not part of the browser either

                                                  Extensions are not part of the browser either, the browser does not ship with them. They are an external resource added to the browser, like you add a bookmark or download a file.

                                                  The way we organized logical hierarchy is that Preferences is for settings of stuff that ships with the browser (so "browser settings").

                                                  Library window is for stuff that you add to the browser with use (currently including Bookmarks/History/Extensions/Downloads/Passwords). This is your library of resources.

                                                  Perhaps we just need better exposure for Library window?

                                                      2 years later

                                                      the addition of Manage Extensions button fulfills the original request, allowing the user to access extension settings from the preferences window. I'd mark this as done @Vlad

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