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Vlad

Do you think creating a Kickstarter with different buckets (Android / Windows / Linux) could still help build a plan?

I completely understand your point - you still need to find a good team that can pull this off in a reasonable timeframe. But I'm assuming it's not the same to go head hunting with a budget of 100k than, say, 1M 😃

The nice thing about the fundraising approach is that, unlike the Orion+ subscription approach, people aren't just giving money away blindly. They would know they will only be spending that money if the browser is actually delivered for the platform they use.

Also, I'm thinking maybe you could allow people to aim their contributions at more than one platform. Meaning, one can contribute to, say, Android OR Linux, and their money can be used for either of them - whatever target is reached first (and a suitable team is found).

I say this because, as others have said, it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'm paying for Kagi (Search) and I have tried (and liked) Orion on my work-issued MacBook. However, my personal devices are a Windows PC and an Android phone... so that's where my Orion journey ended. I can't keep syncing my Firefox bookmarks, history and extensions to Orion, so I just ended up dropping Orion altogether and coming back to Firefox on my Mac as well.

On one hand, I want to pay in order to support an Android version especially. But on the other, I feel like by subscribing to Orion+ I'm not really doing that. At best, maybe I'm contributing to the Linux version that's in the backlog, which I'm not interested in. I also have no reference of the actual impact of my contributions, because there are no specific goals or pricetags attached to them.

I feel like having a specific goal of, say, 300k to develop an Android version, 200k to develop a Linux version, etc., and allowing us to contribute and see how close each target is might help steer people to contribute. And who knows... maybe word will get out and you'll get more support than expected?

I know it's probably a big challenge in itself to simply estimate how much each development would cost in order to set the targets. But it might just be a worthwhile exercise to do.

Anyway, just a thought!

      VMX Fair points, and there is not expectation you would subscribe to Orion+ (thanks for even considering it).

      So the plan is currently that Kagi (search+browser) will eventually get large enough so we can self-fund this organically.

          Vlad
          Thanks for the offer, I have some other projects on currently so this would be somewhere between a hobby and a side project for me.

          For now I'd settle for a steer on whether you're preferring a GTK-centric approach (ie using WebKitGTK) or a more standalone approach with WPE. I note the latter approach is more or less how Vivaldi works (rendering its interface in HTML inside a Chromium iframe) but I'm warming to the GTK(4) approach given how nicely Swift is looking like integrating with libadwaita, and hopefully then enabling maximal code-sharing with at least the macOS version of Orion.

              Vlad

              Thanks a lot for your response Vlad!

              Yeah, I completely understand that and I'll admit that's one of the main "flaws" I see with the kickstarter approach: you could raise funds to get a one-time "lump sum", but software development is an ongoing thing.

              I was thinking that maybe you could fund the "bulk" of each new OS version through a kickstarter, and after that just keep a thinner team (supported by Kagi/Orion+ subscriptions) that takes care of its mainteinance and the gradual implementation of new features. But I of course don't have the real numbers in my head, so this may not be feasible at all. Like you said, maybe it makes more sense to rely on Kagi subscribers to just have a slower but more organic growth, which may be more sustainable in the long term.

              Regarding the actual amount you could raise from donations, it's true that numbers might be challenging, although I would argue that:

              • I'm sure lots of more people are interested, there's just little to add to the thread if you're not a Linux user (which is the OS with the smallest consumer market share if I'm not mistaken).
              • Current Orion userbase is only iOS/MacOS users, which is also a fraction of the market. I guess it's hard to estimate how many would-be users are out there for the dominant OS' (Windows + Android), just eagerly waiting for an Orion version, but not able to even try it now.
              • A kickstarter could help put some numbers on these variables without actually taking anybody's money just yet (if target is not reached, people get their money back). But it's true that creating a kickstarter only to cancel it later for lack of support may also bring some negative publicity to the project.

              If you don't see the kickstarter thing, do you think it could make sense to maybe just do some kind of survey (not a kickstarter) to pulse your existing Kagi+Orion userbase and get a feel for how many people are actually interested in which OS versions, and how many of them would be willing to pay for it?

              Again, just some thoughts off the top of my head. I can only pretend to know what I'm talking about 😄, whereas you clearly know what you're doing with this (very successful) project.

              Congrats on your amazing work and keep fighting the good fight! I think slowly but steadily, more and more regular users (not just tech-savvy people) are starting to realize how bad free search engines have become, and how glued we've all become to our smartphones in general due to the psychological tricks they use to make us addicted to them.

              I recently read Cal Newport's "Digital Minimalism" book, so I might be biased, but I feel like I'm having these kinds of conversations with more and more people without intentionally bringing up the topic or anything... as if people are simply starting to wake up from this bad dream and wondering what the hell has happened to the last 10 years of their life 😅

              Anyway, enough with the offtopic!

                  VMX

                  Excellent idea about the survey. I am myself a case of windows/linux/android user that eagerly waits for a version of Orion.

                    13 days later

                    hello!
                    I dont know a thing in web browser development but any chances you consider orion linux based on gecko web browser engine (firefox one) ?

                    a month later

                    Vlad Anything but chromium is preferred. How to know when/how to test Orion for Linux?

                        Here is my two cents for when this gets attention again:

                        If possible, look into Gecko to see if it has any advantages, since WebKit on Linux isn't as good as it is on Apple devices. Honestly, I'd like to avoid Chromium, even if it is ungoogled Chromium.

                        Additionally, if Kagi Search could finance the browser, that would be a huge win. Personally, I wouldn't pay for a browser if I'm already paying for the search engine. As a poor college student, I cannot justify $15 plus tax per month for both a browser and a search engine, especially when open-source and private browsers already exist. I justify paying for search because, as a software developer, my job is basically to be a professional searcher.

                          a month later

                          Orion might not be a finished product but it's been my daily driver for a few months now and I had very few problems during that time.

                          I'm mainly a Linux user but I like to use my Mac because of software like Orion and I'd willing to support it for more than the current $5 per month, if that ever happens. I already pay for e-mail and now search with Kagi, so browser seems a natural extension of that.

                          21 days later

                          Just subscribed to Orion+ to help support this! Gnome/WebKit seems like the most natural path, given that you are already using WebKit on Apple devices. I also share the concerns from other posters about extending Chromium's grasp on the browser market. Well done on the browser and the search engine! I am always delighted when I use your products. 💗

                          • Vlad replied to this.

                            bh Thanks, we appreciate the support.

                                Would really love to see this happen. Being you can get Webkit through Gnome's browser, that makes sense. Also if you make use of Flatpak, you would allow it to be used across distros and environments.

                                  11 days later

                                  Gnome for sure, thanks for your effort! That's the last piece of puzzle to have the same browser on my pc and laptop.

                                    5 days later

                                    Out of curiosity, if we did a Kickstarter how many of you chime in say $100 for the development of Linux version?

                                      Vlad I would be willing to kick in some money towards that but not $100 as I am only a hobbyist Linux user these days.

                                        Vlad I'd be willing to kick something in, and $100 is definitely in the ballpark that I think I could talk myself into. Would personally feel more sanguine about larger donations and ongoing subs once the project is ready to open source, though.

                                        (I understand the project has its reasons for holding off on open sourcing, and am not trying to distract from this thread's topic)

                                            Bit late in the game, but as a KDE user, I'd still prefer to use a Gnome/GTK version with Webkit over Blink. Mainly to keep the same underlying engine as its macOS counterpart.

                                              hawdini

                                              Same way I am. I use both, but most browsers fail to follow system themes anyway. So, whatever makes it easier to port over. I have seen the problems browsers like Arc have had trying to port to Windows and using an entirely different engine.