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I vote for webkit. I agree that there's enough crhromium browsers

6 days later

one vote more for webkit, free me of the chromium reign!

can't wait to be able to use the same browser in iOS, mac os and linux.

PS. yeah, just trying to stay away from windows as far as possible

a month later

gp I think Flatpak is the way to go. At the very least Flatpak should be the focus.

  1. A containerized application means the developers of Orion for Linux can include all required dependencies. They don't need to concern themselves with different packaging formats like .deb or .rpm.

  2. As Flathub is planning on including payment for applications for applications distributed through them Orion unlocks a potential new source of revenue. Payments can be optional to keep the app free for users who are unsure.

  3. The installation is basically a one-click affair. Users can install Flatpaks through GNOME Software or Discover on KDE Plasma.

  4. GNOME Web/Epiphany is already distributed via Flathub and uses WebKit so there should no issues with WebKit itself.

    Sorry to report that the contractor team who was supposed to work on this bailed out. We are back to putting this on hold.

      a month later

      kio Nope, at this time we do not have anyone willing to take on this project in an economically viable way and we do not have enough Orion+ members to fund it.

        14 days later

        I am not a developer, so please excuse my ignorance, but would a Flatpak or AppImage be a viable way to move forward since they are supported on almost all distros and DE? If not, I would like to put a vote in for the Gnome DE if this project gets up and running again.

          @Vlad
          What about making a kickstarter/founding for Linux/Windows/Android Orion?

          I gotta say, me and a lot of other members would contribute. Idk, you guys could decide which platform would be better to launch first among the three options and then start a founding to gather enough resources to make it happen.

          I mean, I gotta say, personally, I haven't bought Orion+ cause it's just for Apple, I'm mostly Windows/Linux/Android user. With a founding project, I believe we can make it happen.

            6 days later

            TheLastEnvoy Not a bad idea, but raising money is just one part of equation, the other is finding people who can build a browser on Linux. If anyone know any of this caliber please send them our way so that we can assess how much money we will need to raise in the first place.

                22 days later

                I know this isn't being worked on now, but I figured I'd chime in.

                I'm personally using KDE as my DE, so I'd vote for anything that lets me use the browser in KDE.

                  a month later

                  If this does ever get picked up again, I hope you're able to stick with GTK and webkit.

                  Hello everyone, I think that regarding this topic @Vlad should clarify what is the main goal of kagi, if it is to bring webkit in each Os we will to wait a long time if instead the goal is to make available a zero telemetry and light and then consider using geko for other Os?
                  The last one seems strange given the huge work they are doing to bring the extensions to webkit

                  • Vlad replied to this.
                    8 days later

                    Good luck, and hope this initiative is picked back up.

                    Worth noting that using WebKit on Linux doesn't limit you to GTK/Gnome, as WebKit for Embedded (WPE) can output a texture directly. I built a proof-of-concept browser using direct GL rendering with Sway on Wayland using WPE, (see also Cog).

                    I've done some experimental work (and so has Igalia for Epiphany/Gnome Web) on implementing the Web Extensions standard (Mozilla), with the goal of supporting at least BitWarden and uBlock Origin. Performance is great and easy to have multiprocess renderering / suspended tabs etc.

                      Vlad

                      Do you think creating a Kickstarter with different buckets (Android / Windows / Linux) could still help build a plan?

                      I completely understand your point - you still need to find a good team that can pull this off in a reasonable timeframe. But I'm assuming it's not the same to go head hunting with a budget of 100k than, say, 1M 😃

                      The nice thing about the fundraising approach is that, unlike the Orion+ subscription approach, people aren't just giving money away blindly. They would know they will only be spending that money if the browser is actually delivered for the platform they use.

                      Also, I'm thinking maybe you could allow people to aim their contributions at more than one platform. Meaning, one can contribute to, say, Android OR Linux, and their money can be used for either of them - whatever target is reached first (and a suitable team is found).

                      I say this because, as others have said, it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'm paying for Kagi (Search) and I have tried (and liked) Orion on my work-issued MacBook. However, my personal devices are a Windows PC and an Android phone... so that's where my Orion journey ended. I can't keep syncing my Firefox bookmarks, history and extensions to Orion, so I just ended up dropping Orion altogether and coming back to Firefox on my Mac as well.

                      On one hand, I want to pay in order to support an Android version especially. But on the other, I feel like by subscribing to Orion+ I'm not really doing that. At best, maybe I'm contributing to the Linux version that's in the backlog, which I'm not interested in. I also have no reference of the actual impact of my contributions, because there are no specific goals or pricetags attached to them.

                      I feel like having a specific goal of, say, 300k to develop an Android version, 200k to develop a Linux version, etc., and allowing us to contribute and see how close each target is might help steer people to contribute. And who knows... maybe word will get out and you'll get more support than expected?

                      I know it's probably a big challenge in itself to simply estimate how much each development would cost in order to set the targets. But it might just be a worthwhile exercise to do.

                      Anyway, just a thought!

                          VMX Fair points, and there is not expectation you would subscribe to Orion+ (thanks for even considering it).

                          So the plan is currently that Kagi (search+browser) will eventually get large enough so we can self-fund this organically.

                              Vlad
                              Thanks for the offer, I have some other projects on currently so this would be somewhere between a hobby and a side project for me.

                              For now I'd settle for a steer on whether you're preferring a GTK-centric approach (ie using WebKitGTK) or a more standalone approach with WPE. I note the latter approach is more or less how Vivaldi works (rendering its interface in HTML inside a Chromium iframe) but I'm warming to the GTK(4) approach given how nicely Swift is looking like integrating with libadwaita, and hopefully then enabling maximal code-sharing with at least the macOS version of Orion.

                                  Vlad

                                  Thanks a lot for your response Vlad!

                                  Yeah, I completely understand that and I'll admit that's one of the main "flaws" I see with the kickstarter approach: you could raise funds to get a one-time "lump sum", but software development is an ongoing thing.

                                  I was thinking that maybe you could fund the "bulk" of each new OS version through a kickstarter, and after that just keep a thinner team (supported by Kagi/Orion+ subscriptions) that takes care of its mainteinance and the gradual implementation of new features. But I of course don't have the real numbers in my head, so this may not be feasible at all. Like you said, maybe it makes more sense to rely on Kagi subscribers to just have a slower but more organic growth, which may be more sustainable in the long term.

                                  Regarding the actual amount you could raise from donations, it's true that numbers might be challenging, although I would argue that:

                                  • I'm sure lots of more people are interested, there's just little to add to the thread if you're not a Linux user (which is the OS with the smallest consumer market share if I'm not mistaken).
                                  • Current Orion userbase is only iOS/MacOS users, which is also a fraction of the market. I guess it's hard to estimate how many would-be users are out there for the dominant OS' (Windows + Android), just eagerly waiting for an Orion version, but not able to even try it now.
                                  • A kickstarter could help put some numbers on these variables without actually taking anybody's money just yet (if target is not reached, people get their money back). But it's true that creating a kickstarter only to cancel it later for lack of support may also bring some negative publicity to the project.

                                  If you don't see the kickstarter thing, do you think it could make sense to maybe just do some kind of survey (not a kickstarter) to pulse your existing Kagi+Orion userbase and get a feel for how many people are actually interested in which OS versions, and how many of them would be willing to pay for it?

                                  Again, just some thoughts off the top of my head. I can only pretend to know what I'm talking about 😄, whereas you clearly know what you're doing with this (very successful) project.

                                  Congrats on your amazing work and keep fighting the good fight! I think slowly but steadily, more and more regular users (not just tech-savvy people) are starting to realize how bad free search engines have become, and how glued we've all become to our smartphones in general due to the psychological tricks they use to make us addicted to them.

                                  I recently read Cal Newport's "Digital Minimalism" book, so I might be biased, but I feel like I'm having these kinds of conversations with more and more people without intentionally bringing up the topic or anything... as if people are simply starting to wake up from this bad dream and wondering what the hell has happened to the last 10 years of their life 😅

                                  Anyway, enough with the offtopic!

                                      VMX

                                      Excellent idea about the survey. I am myself a case of windows/linux/android user that eagerly waits for a version of Orion.