Orion not syncing on MacOS Sonoma

gabfl

What happened? How did it happen? What are the steps to replicate the issue.
Versions:

macOS: 14.0 (23A344)
Orion: Version 0.99.125-beta (WebKit 616.1.22)
Hardware: Mac Mini M2

Syncing is enabled in Orion:

iCloud drive is enabled and Orion checked:

Assuming this is relevant but ~/Library/Application Support/Orion/Defaults/Sync is empty:

ls -lha ~/Library/Application Support/Orion/Defaults/Sync
total 0
drwxr-xr-x@  2 gab  staff    64B Oct  9 07:41 .
drwxr-xr-x@ 34 gab  staff   1.1K Oct  9 22:03 ..

Additionally, no Orion directory is created in iCloud drive:

I have enabled and disabled syncing multiple times in both Orion and iCloud settings. Restarting the software did not help.
I assume the directory ~/Library/Application Support/Orion/Defaults/Sync should not be empty if Orion was attempting to sync but I may be mistaken.

Please let me know if I can add any additional informations.

What did you expect to happen? Describe the desired functionality.
I expected to see Orion files in iCloud drive and the browser to sync with other devices. Other devices are behaving as if the original device did not exist.

What version of Orion are you running?
Version 0.99.125-beta (WebKit 616.1.22)

maikeru8

I have a very similar issue - however in MacOS System Settings--->iCloud drive OrionRC is not even listed as an option to turn on. I have tried toggling off/on the sync settings in OrionRC, to no avail. Thus bookmarks are not syncing when I try to use iOS Orion

rosenrot

Same here, I miss my bookmarks 🙁

Vlad

No issue here, so it it likely a Sonoma/iCloud issue.

We have some troubleshooting here https://help.kagi.com/orion/support-and-community/troubleshooting/troubleshooting-syncing-data-issues.html

gabfl

Vlad I have done the steps outlined in the troubleshooting page multiple times before opening this ticket.

Is there a path to understand where does the problem come from? Syncing works with other applications, Orion is the only application in which syncing does not work properly on my end.

dsampley

Orion for me does not show up as an option under apps that use iCloud. I have performed the troubleshooting steps listed and Orion does not show under iCloud apps.

Antinetizen1

dsampley In Sonoma, this is now buried under Systems Settings/iCloud/iCloud Drive/Apps syncing to iCloud Drive.

I've tried toggling it there also, though, with mixed results. Now, I can see Saved Windows from my other devices, and in fact it shows my Synced Devices in the Windows sidebar.

But the bookmarks from those devices are not synced to the Sonoma machine that I am working on currently.

dsampley

Antinetizen1 So I did check and Orion is not listed as an app to sync with iCloud. I reinstalled the app and Orion does not appear on that list.

Antinetizen1

Okay, I'm not sure what expected behavior was previously, but this seems odd to me. My laptop seems to believe that it is syncing with my other two devices, an iPad and a Mac Mini. The Mini is also running Sonoma; the iPad is on 17.0.3.

The iPad can see both the Mini and the Laptop in Synced devices and open any currently open windows from the laptop. It cannot see open windows or tab groups on the Mini... but it does sync bookmarks from the Mini (the master list, in this scenario, which I am trying to get synced to the laptop).

The laptop can see both the Mini and the iPad in Synced Devices and open any open window from the iPad. But it does not see any open windows or tab groups on the Mini, and does not sync bookmarks from the Mini. You can see the difference in the menu items as seen from the laptop here:

I'm also noticing that in File, Profiles, Manage Profiles, the Default profile on the Mini shows that it is Synced. It appears identical on the laptop... but it's not actually in sync.

I don't see anywhere in Manage Profiles to toggle sync--although that would be handy, if I could also sync up other profiles! Or maybe this is only available for the default? But does that then conflict with other Default profiles? I'm blurry on how this is all supposed to work, so I can't tell if it's not working as expected... except I'm not getting my bookmarks on all devices.

gabfl

It seems that each user encounters somewhat different behaviors. I was able to reproduce what @Antinetizen1 documented and I wish this was documented in the Orion documentation. It is literrally 5 sub-menus down wich is hard to find.

I can see this menu for one of my profile but not the other one. In the "Manage Profiles" window it does not show as synced (who would have thought this information was there?)

It's quite worrisome for the future of Orion that clearly this is not an isolated issue and it is dismissed by @Vlad as likely an iCloud issue. Syncing is essential for people with multiple devices and I cannot picture Orion competing with other browsers without having a solid syncing process.

Vlad

gabfl

I wish this was documented in the Orion documentation

What exactly?

Btw Orion documentation is crowdsourced and is open-source you have click to edit any page.

Antinetizen1

And this morning, my bookmarks just sort of randomly synced up. Can't think of anything I did differently; in fact, I'm on a much lower bandwidth connection now than when I first tried this.

Not inconcievable it was some funky iCloud weirdness, but didn't have any issues with other items that I have synced through iCloud during the same timeframe.

Antinetizen1

Vlad For my part, I'd just like more details on how sync is SUPPOSED to work, so I can troubleshoot when it is not. For instance:

Location of the synchronization files in iCloud
How sync conflicts are managed; if I have a tab group open on one machine and close a tab, will that close it on another machine, or does it only work when closing and reopening the group? Same with bookmark conflicts--I had manually added bookmarks when I thought sync wasn't working, and when it kicked in, everything was duplicated... is that expected behavior, or not?
Is the behavior of the Profile, Windows, MacOS vs iOS operation supposed to be the same or different (see above, where my Mini appears in the list but does not offer a way to open or manage any of the currently open Windows on it, as the iPad does)?
How often and how quickly should synchronization occur?
What's the relationship between profile syncing and other sync settings (in other words, why does Settings, Sync, Enable result in the File, Profiles, Manage Profiles window show the default profile reading as Synced "Yes" while the same setting in another profile leaves Synced blank)?

I'm willing to update the documentation, but this is just stuff I don't know how to find the answers for in the first place.

MisterTwo

I'm struggling with what I think is this bug. Tab syncing seems to mostly work, but bookmarks never sync between my two Macs running Sonoma. Changes are picked up on iOS but not macOS. I've tried all steps in the Orion sync help and this guide.

MisterTwo

I think I need to retract my comment that tab syncing largely works. It sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. iCloud is a huge pain to troubleshoot sync it's a black box but it appears to not work 90+% of the time on Orion despite my efforts to resolve.

@Vlad please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you troubleshoot.

I have a hunch (says the non-programer) that apps with reliable icloud syncing are doing some belt and suspenders work to poke and prod it in ways that force it to work better then it does out of the box. Arc for example uses icloud syncing and is instant and very reliable.

Vlad

MisterTwo

Arc for example uses icloud syncing and is instant and very reliable.

Does it sync comparable things (all tabs/bookmarks?)

Can you set up an experiment that could reproduce this from scratch - Arc clean install Orion install, both enable iCloud, and then both verified for sync on a new computer.

Maybe there is something to what you say but we would like to validate it is a thing and that we are comparing apples and apples.

oxmynx

What does your feature entail? What is it for? How will it affect existing workflows or user experience?
I just signed up for Orion+ and downloaded the latest RC to my Mac. But apparently, it’s treated as a totally different software and the sync of bookmarks and windows etc. are not working with Orion on iOS. Am I missing something or is this intended? Would be great if you could enable such synchronization. Thanks!

What are the exact ways that you see a user using your proposed feature? Please go into as much detail as possible, and provide examples of how other browsers/apps implement this feature, if applicable. If your feature suggestion adds on to an existing feature, how would it work into it to extend its usefulness?
One could use RC seamlessly with iOS versions.

Dustin

oxmynx This shouldn't be the case. I daily drive Orion RC on Mac and my bookmarks and things are synced and updated to Orion iOS without any issue.

Vlad

oxmynx iCloud is flaky https://kagi.com/search?q=icloud+sync+not+working&r=us&sh=speBJnYGmOBZeRy-u3aT7Q

We have some troubleshooting here
https://help.kagi.com/orion/support-and-community/troubleshooting/troubleshooting-syncing-data-issues.html

Not much we can do, up to Apple to fix it.

oxmynx

Okay, I see that the iCloud sync is still a bit unreliable. I removed the Orion RC and installed everything again and then the sync is working. However, when I do changes on Mac or on iOS it's not always syncing correctly. I also noticed, whenever I move or delete a bookmark on Mac, Orion RC crashes. Probably not related, but I thought still worth sharing here.

Dustin

oxmynx If you find that a bookmark from Mac is not showing up on Orion iOS, try force-quitting the Orion iOS and see if it shows up after. That works for me sometimes.